HHRG-118-GO12-Transcript-20241113.pdf

U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 
57–440 PDF 
2025 
UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA: 
EXPOSING THE TRUTH 
JOINT HEARING 
BEFORE THE 
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CYBERSECURITY, INFORMATION 
TECHNOLOGY, AND GOVERNMENT INNOVATION 
AND THE 
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, 
THE BORDER, AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS 
OF THE 
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 
ACCOUNTABILITY 
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS 
SECOND SESSION 
NOVEMBER 13, 2024 
Serial No. 118–135 
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability 
( 
Available on: govinfo.gov, 
oversight.house.gov…

(II) 
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY 
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman 
JIM JORDAN, Ohio 
MIKE TURNER, Ohio 
PAUL GOSAR, Arizona 
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina 
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin 
MICHAEL CLOUD, Texas 
GARY PALMER, Alabama 
CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana 
PETE SESSIONS, Texas 
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona 
NANCY MACE, South Carolina 
JAKE LATURNER, Kansas 
PAT FALLON, Texas 
BYRON DONALDS, Florida 
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania 
WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina 
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee 
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, Georgia 
LISA MCCLAIN, Michigan 
LAUREN BOEBERT, Colorado 
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina …

(III) 
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CYBERSECURITY, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, AND GOVERNMENT 
INNOVATION 
NANCY MACE, South Carolina, Chairwoman 
WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina 
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee 
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, Georgia 
ANNA PAULINA LUNA, Florida 
NICK LANGWORTHY, New York 
ERIC BURLISON, Missouri 
Vacancy 
Vacancy 
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia Ranking 
Minority Member 
RO KHANNA, California 
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts 
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland 
JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida 
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachesetts 
Vacancy 
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, THE BORDER, AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS 
GLENN GROTH…

(IV) 
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Hearing held on November 13, 2024 ......................................................................
1 
WITNESSES 
Dr. Tim Gallaudet, Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy (RET.), Chief Executive Officer, 
Ocean STL Consulting, LLC 
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................
9 
Mr. Luis Elizondo, Author, and Former Department of Defense Official 
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................
11 
Mr. Michael Shellenberger, Foun…

(1) 
UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA: 
EXPOSING THE TRUTH 
Wednesday, November 13, 2024 
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY 
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CYBERSECURITY, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, 
AND GOVERNMENT INNOVATION 
JOINTLY, WITH THE 
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, THE BORDER, AND FOREIGN 
AFFAIRS 
Washington, D.C. 
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:37 a.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nancy Mace 
[Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding. 
Present: Representatives Mace, Grothman, Timmons, Burchett, 
Higgins, Luna, Biggs,…

2 
Former National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster said on Bill 
Maher’s program that, quote, ‘‘There are phenomena that have 
been witnessed by multiple people that are just inexplicable by the 
science available to us.’’ 
Army Colonel Karl Nell, a member of the Federal Government 
UAP Task Force, said at a conference this past May that, 
‘‘nonhuman intelligence exists, nonhuman intelligence has been 
interacting with humanity. This interaction is not new and has 
been ongoing, and they’re unelected people in the government that 
are aware of that.’’ 
But UAPs remain a controversial topic. I a…

3 
I am disturbed that AARO itself lacks transparency. Even its 
budget is kept from the public. So, if there is no there ‘‘there’’, then 
why are we spending money on it, and by how much? Why the se-
crecy if it is really no big deal and there is nothing there? Why hide 
it from the American people? Because I am not a mathematician, 
but I can tell you that does not add up. 
I expect some of our witnesses to share their views on that 
AARO report. We will also hear, from the witnesses today, allega-
tions of UAP-related misinformation and disinformation by govern-
ment officials of which they…

4 
I also want to note that today’s hearing builds on a quite, I 
think, also historic public hearing that we had many months ago 
that Mr. Grothman and others help lead in this very same hearing 
room where I believe we began a really important public conversa-
tion about UAPs. And so, I want to thank him for that, and I espe-
cially want to thank Chairwoman Mace for her continued advocacy 
on this topic. 
I also want to start with some facts. We know that there are ob-
jects or phenomena observed in our airspace, as our witnesses will 
testify, and also, possibly, in our oceans. In many case…